Ep. 35 | Revisiting My Old Thoughts on Diet Culture (And Cringing a Bit)

In this episode, I’m reflecting on an old podcast episode I recorded back in 2020, before I had the language or tools to really understand diet culture and fat liberation. I’m sharing clips from that original episode and responding to what I got right, what I hadn’t yet learned, and how my relationship with body image and fat acceptance has evolved since then. This work isn’t linear, but growth is powerful—and this episode is full of it.

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Transcript

Melanie Knights [she/they] (00:00)
Hello, beautiful friends. Hello, my plus-size pals. Hello, everybody. Welcome to episode 35 of The Culture For All, a brand new episode and also our final episode of this season of the show. Next week, I will be replaying an episode from last year. It will be my Fat Positive Fall episode. And I will be taking a little break from recording as we...

settle back in and get ready for high school. This kind of new chapter as a family and I'm really looking forward to what is to come and I really want to be able to be available and present during that time and I will be doing some planning behind the scenes and getting ready for season five of the show. A season that I'm hoping is going to be full of new conversations for you. I'm going to be bringing guests on.

fairly consistently onto the show. And yeah, obviously I'll be looking forward to my favourite season and time of year. And it's going to be a really great season five. I'm also going to be going from weekly episodes back to bi-weekly or every other week episodes. I gave weekly episodes a try and I had a lot to talk about and share. this season of the show, has been

jam-packed and full of content and I've loved it. I've also had a few moments where I felt like I'm playing catch-up a lot of the time and I don't like that feeling and I want to give myself a bit more creative space to work on other projects in between episodes. So yeah, this is my plan. Now today's episode is an interesting one. It's not something I've ever done before, something I've thought of for a couple of reasons.

And we are going to be going back to October 1st of 2020. And I know that sounds a little bit daunting, but it is the day that my first podcast, Entrepreneurial Outlaws, launched. And honestly, when I talk about Entrepreneurial Outlaws, when I think about that show and the movement that I created with it, and just that time as a content creator, it means a lot for me personally.

And the reason it means so much is because it really kind of signified what became me divesting from diet culture. It really started to open my eyes to so much of what was going on. Like I'd already started to see how problematic specifically the online business coaching space was, but that was kind of where it started. I...

as you hear in this, the clips that I've chosen from this episode, I very much believed that I had ditched diets. And what I can tell you is that I very much did not understand diet culture in its full capacity. And like, I certainly didn't understand, or didn't understand it then the way I understand it and recognize it now. ⁓

Yeah, it was interesting listening back to this episode because there are some really great pieces and there are some difficult things to hear because I know at the time I meant well and I know I didn't have the tools, the language, the resources that I have now. You know, I didn't have the knowledge that I have now. So that's also really cool to see in the last five years how far I've come personally

you know, I will continue to learn. I'm going to forever be learning. But it's been, yeah, it's, it's, it's been a little bit interesting listening back. I'm like, did you really need to say that? And you know what? She didn't know any differently. It's fine. this episode was episode number three of Entrepreneurial Outlaws. It was, I released three episodes on that first day and this was the third one.

And the episode was originally titled, Diet Culture Body Image and Being a Plus Size Entrepreneur. And as you'll hear in this kind of first clip, I was feeling a little bit nervous.

Melanie Knights [she/they] (04:30)
Welcome to episode number three of Entrepreneurial Outlaws. Today's episode feels just a little bit vulnerable and a little bit heavy. Today we're going to be talking about diet culture, body image, being a plus size entrepreneur, and really how diet culture and body image have infiltrated into the online business coaching space in particular.

Now I have sat down to record this episode at least eight times. As I said, it feels vulnerable and heavy and I keep feeling a little bit stuck.

So I want to just preface this episode by saying if you listen and you feel the need to send me some kind of message or email, offering me diet advice, health advice, weight advice, I don't know, something like that, because you're concerned by my health, I wanna ask you to not do that. I wanna explain to you that this is not the point of today's episode. Today's episode is not about

diet advice, weight advice, or any version of that. It is a bigger conversation that needs to be had.

Melanie Knights [she/they] (05:51)
What's super interesting listening back to this kind of intro to episode three is hearing... hearing my nerves talking about something that I now talk about so freely and so openly across social media and...

I remember quite clearly around that time I had posted something on Instagram saying that since I had started my business I had gained weight. And I was very, as I said, very open. I think I was as open as I was willing to be at that time. I still obviously had, as you will continue to hear, I still had a lot of struggles with my body image. I didn't love my body. I was just starting to accept it.

or perhaps explore the idea of accepting my body as it is. And I remember posting that on Instagram during COVID or during 2020 and during the

What's really interesting, listening back to that intro, is not just that, you know, I was nervous to record this episode for sure, but I remember that time I had posted something on Instagram prior to this episode earlier in 2020, I think, sharing that I had gained weight since starting my business. And the reason that felt...

such an important conversation to share even though

it was also fairly irrelevant, was because I was feeling a lot of guilt and shame around it. I had started my business in the health and fitness space. I had a, still at that point, a lot of peers who were fitness professionals and I was feeling some kind of way about my body. And so I shared this post saying that I had gained weight once I started my business. And I wanted to kind of say it publicly because

I had a business coach who would joke about like freshman 15, but as business owners and entrepreneurs, and would talk about how it was like this rite of passage because you start this online business and you're hustling so hard and you're not eating properly and you're not taking care of, you know, all the very stereotypical language that would be used, like you're not taking care of yourself and you're missing workouts and you know, all these things. And it's like, actually for me, a lot of that came down to

being shamed, a lot of financial stress and anxiety and also you know just a lot of anxiety in general and that was kind of yes I'm an adult and yes I had choices I could make but I didn't know any differently and I wanted that so badly. I so badly wanted to be successful and I you know made myself very unwell in that time and it's interesting listening back to that because I remember

feeling like I needed to talk about this weight gain publicly because I still had so many fitness professional friends and also, you know, kind of coupling that with my own shame and guilt about my body size and I wanted to just start talking about it. I did it in a very managed way. I was not... I was not as open as I am now. I, you know, there's a lot...

In those five years, there's been a big change in how I present myself online, how I talk about myself, how I, you know, I wouldn't even for a long period of time show like full body images of myself. And now I don't care. So, yeah, listening back, can hear those nerves because it's the first time I'm really talking about this. But as I've listened to this episode, I've realised that I had no idea.

I knew what I knew at that time and I had, I talk about this being a bigger conversation. Oh, I didn't barely scratch the surface in this episode. I barely scratched the surface. I was on the right track as I know, but I barely scratched the surface and I had no idea how much, how much there was to learn and how much of a bigger conversation there was still to have.

Um, and probably is still to have, but yeah, listening back, it's interesting hearing myself talk about those nerves because each step of this as I, you know, up until really, I mean, starting the podcast, this podcast, the culture of it all last year, that, that was nerve wracking. And then starting to take TikTok more seriously, that was nerve wracking. So this still continues to be.

parts of this that make me nervous and make me feel vulnerable because you are sharing your thoughts with the world, that's scary in itself, but to have an opinion that is so polarising, or, you know, seemingly so polarising, I don't think it's that polarising at all, but, you know, society does. And I think that...

that kind of really... it helped, it held me back and it really helped. made me cautious of how I spoke about these things. It's interesting to listen back and to hear the parts of this that I've already like, ⁓ okay, I was already using certain words or certain language and then also...

in the same space I'm using still binary language talking about food and fitness and I was like ugh okay but yeah so let's listen to the next clip

Melanie Knights [she/they] (12:14)
think it's important for me to start this episode by answering the question, who the hell am I to be having this conversation with you?

I have spent most of my 33 years on this planet focused on my body image in some way, trying to take up less space, dieting, weight loss, abusing my body. Yeah, most of my life has been spent really immersed in diet culture from a very young age, probably around the age of 11. That's when I remember one of my first diets, but there's a good chance it was before that.

Even as an adult, even after I started my own health and fitness business back in 2016, gained a number of qualifications from metabolic effect and coached other women, I still struggle. I still struggle with the food choices I make. I still struggle with being consistent in certain areas of my fitness.

It's not because I don't think about it. It's not because I don't care. Not because I don't want to live a very, very long life. I feel like it's always going to be something I have to give more attention to.

Melanie Knights [she/they] (13:42)
It's so interesting hearing me kind of finish that clip saying it's something I'm going to just have to give myself, give more attention to. And I know that for a long time that had been my belief that, well, this is just, this is just my life. This is how this works. I am someone who for whatever reason, quote unquote struggles with food movement.

my body size and listening to this I can really hear that conflict that I hadn't yet I guess overcome which is

I'm not so sure that this bullshit works and I don't think it does because everything has shown me that it doesn't. But like, what's my other option? You know, I can still hear that in myself. What are my other options? It was like, dieting felt like it was now off the table, but weight loss wasn't. Does that make sense? Like, dieting was something I didn't want to pursue.

weight loss was possibly still something I wanted to pursue. I don't know what that looked like. I don't know what I was expecting that to look like or how I was expecting to achieve it. And I also think I still associated my health with thinness. You know, I think there was still an element of that internalized fat phobia, that internalized stigma.

and shame around my own body. I can just... It feels as though...

To me it's blatantly obvious. To me it's really obvious. And I think to many of you, would be obvious as well in the language that I've used so far. And at the same time, I think to a lot of people, it wouldn't be obvious at all. You know, I don't think it would be obvious to most people. ⁓

But I think those people would probably also still be.

pursuing intentional weight loss, thinness, dieting, and, you know, having a certain level of internalised fatphobia still kind of forming their decisions. And I certainly, I can see that, I can feel, hear that conflict in this clip in particular, because the idea that I'm talking about, and I'll be very honest, I really don't talk about diet culture.

at all in this episode. I think I do. I can tell that I'm thinking I'm on the right track. But what I am exploring, I think at this point is yeah, dieting is bullshit. But weight loss is still something I want. I still want to be smaller than I am.

Yeah, it's interesting. Okay, let's listen to the next clip.

Melanie Knights [she/they] (16:59)
But I sometimes wonder whether I would be running my own business now if I had not been through that weight loss journey. And that bothers me. In fact, it really pisses me off. It pisses me off because if I hadn't lost weight, would I have held myself back because I needed to be thin to be worthy and successful?

Would I have held myself back? Would cultural norms have held me back because you can only be successful if you look a certain way? Because that's so much of what we see.

Melanie Knights [she/they] (17:45)
I mean, yes, yes, I did hold myself back.

for so much of my life because I felt like my dreams, my goals to be accomplished, to be successful, whatever it- whatever that means really, I felt like I needed to be thin.

Every version of, you know, future me, when I thought about working in fashion or what I wanted to do with my life, I was always thin in those dreams. There was no part of me that believed I wouldn't one day achieve that. It felt like that was gonna be the first achievement, the first accomplishment, the first way that I would be successful in life. And...

Yeah, the reality is that I did hold myself back and however much I may look back at that time when I pursued weight loss and turned that into a business, however much I may not like that and however much I may recognise that I was causing myself and others harm by doing it, I also don't know that I would be here speaking about this and podcasting if I hadn't gone through that

It's really difficult to comprehend because on the one hand, it was a really tough time. It was a lot, you know, I didn't think it was tough at the time. I thought it was great. I thought it amazing. But to look back and see how I treated myself and how negatively I felt about myself, to know that all of that, you know, it did essentially get me here. It took time and it was a process, but it eventually led me to

Realizing that I am so much more than my body size. am so much more than the size of my clothes. and

I wouldn't have... I guess I wouldn't have got to this point had I not been through that. Maybe it wouldn't have had to be exactly the same. You know, plenty of other people have these defining moments. This just happened to be my defining moment, which was... Realising that after all of that, I wasn't happy. ⁓ That I was never gonna be happy.

because I continued to move the goalposts and realizing that now I needed to make a decision. And I think what's interesting is because obviously, know, hindsight and looking back, I'm like, you know, from the point at which this episode came out, it was basically two years. It was 18 months, ⁓ up until the point where I made- I knew I had to make a decision.

I could either continue pursuing weight loss and thinness, or I could really figure out how to.

accept and heal the body image trauma I had. And it was two years, was, you know, autumn of 2022, and that I started intuitive eating. And so the next two years, I think, were a bit of a battleground. There was obviously a lot of other stuff going on in the world, so it wasn't consistently. over those two years, it was definitely a lot of learning and probably a lot of

three steps forward, two steps back, you know, until I made that decision. A decision that I do not regret whatsoever.

Melanie Knights [she/they] (21:38)
When we use the word diet, we think about somebody who potentially wants to lose weight when that is not what that word means.

when we think about the fat.

Many of you may feel this need to panic. No, no, no, we can't, we can't use that word because it's used as an insult. And yet the word itself is not an insult. And there are many, many people out there who actually prefer the term fat. It was first time I ever had this was on a podcast of it's American life. A friend had sent me this episode and it was all about.

coming out as fat. Lindy West, had written this book called Shrel and she had referenced the journey of her career and how she had been treated differently in her corporate job because of her size. And not only that, how people who she worked with would make

fat jokes would make comments never at her, but in front of her, as if they couldn't see how she looked. And so she introduced this idea of coming out as fat, it's like this conversation that we have to have with people, because even though you can see us and we are in front of you, it's something we ignore, it's something we avoid. We can't bring it up.

Melanie Knights [she/they] (23:18)
That episode of It's American Life was actually very defining for me. ⁓ My friend Hillary, who listens to the show, sent it to me, I want to say in like 2018, and she sent it to me saying that the conversations and the stories really reminded her of me.

now at this point in our friendship, almost 10 years, I'm like, she often sees things that I do not see. She sees a lot of things about myself that I do not see. And I have to wonder whether...

she was able to see kind of the trajectory of where I was going with the work I was doing at that time and the way I was feeling about my body and the conversations long before I ever did. within this episode, there's actually three, different people who speak about the experiences they're having with their bodies.

Lindy West is the first guest on the show and she obviously refers to her book which then later got turned into a TV show.

following Lindy on social media, reading Shrill, that again was a really defining moment for me on this journey. And I have referenced that episode of It's American Life many times in the past. I've talked about it a lot because I still have it on my phone. I have that episode downloaded on my podcast player because you never know when I'm going to want to re-listen to it. And I may feel very differently about it now.

You know, the note of the word diet and the word fat, I think it's really interesting that I'm talking about the term fat, because now I would say fat as a neutral descriptor. That is not language I had back then. But I was very aware of the fact that I'm not really sure fat is the problem.

But yeah, so I think that's an important thing to recognise is that even if at the moment

the use of the term fat or certain terms still leave you feeling uncomfortable with time and with learning and unlearning and more education and just I think also being around a lot of people who use the term fat as a neutral descriptor can do wonders for our own body image and our own healing. So.

Let's listen to the next clip.

Melanie Knights [she/they] (25:51)
people who have body like me have been told

that we do not belong. And the problem is this has been dripped down into the online business space, specifically online business coaching.

Because so much of the online business coaching space, they have adopted this body positivity and size inclusive and I use air quotes authentic marketing. This place where the size of your body impacts whether or not you should run an online business, the size of your body impacts whether or not you should be paid.

The size of your body impacts whether or not you are safe here, whether you're included, whether you're welcome. The size of my body is the least interesting thing about me. The size of my body doesn't impact how well I do my job.

The size of my body doesn't make any fucking difference because the skills I have, how hard I work, that's not because of my body, that's because of who I am.

as I have done more and more research, I have realized

to the online business space.

has primarily been built on thinness.

There's a lot of cookie cutter coaching out there and it is built on being white, thin and privileged.

Melanie Knights [she/they] (27:27)
It's so interesting because in this clip I'm talking about diet culture. I'm talking about the system of beliefs that tells us there is only one way to have a body and that body is white and thin among many other things and-

I know that this was the first kind of space, online business, coaching specifically, was the first space that I started to become aware of. Not only that it was anti-fat, but that it was racist and ableist and sexist and

It centered thin bodies and it centered whiteness and this became very, clear to a lot of us during 2020. During that summer there were so many conversations happening.

around, you know, quote unquote safe spaces and the ways in which these supposed safe spaces for entrepreneurs and coaches and these places that people were paying to be a part of were only safe if you kept quiet. They were only safe and welcoming if you played the game.

And was the first place where I really started to see it for what it was. And as I left that space, I just became more and more frustrated. I was very disenchanted by-

online business and I still really wanted to work for myself and be quote unquote successful, whatever that meant. But at the same time, I didn't want to do things the way that I'd been doing them. I was fed up with that and I started speaking out against a lot of the unethical marketing that I was seeing.

know, I can hear it in this episode, there are so many pieces of this that I didn't kind of... it was like I had lots of pieces of a puzzle but I didn't yet have... I didn't know where I was supposed to put them all, I guess is the way I would explain it. And for whatever reason I couldn't tell what the picture was supposed to be and it was like I was just looking at all these puzzle pieces going well this is shit and this is shit and this is shit but I didn't know how it all fitted together.

And over time, I started to realize how it all fitted together and how it all came back to, you know, the same thing and the same systems. And...

This is really obvious to me when I'm talking about online business. You know, I feel like that was a really significant part of my life in the last decade. Something that I was so passionate about, something I worked so hard for and I invested so many resources into it. Only to kind of walk away from it going, okay, this isn't really how I want to live my life. This isn't really the way...

I want to work or create. And I left that and threw myself into, you know, much more kind of spiritual and woo curious practices. And I still love the woo. I'm still very much into the woo. But I know right now I don't give myself enough space to work on in that way as well. And I feel as though in the last couple of years...

What's been really interesting is that kind of spirituality and by spirituality for me that is...

journaling, meditation, creative projects, like that's for me what that means. Like I know it means different things to everybody, but for me that's kind of what it means. Just connecting back to myself most of the time. And I noticed that the more and more I've divested from diet culture and been working in the anti-diet space, I now feel...

slightly disengaged from spiritual spaces because there's actually so much fatphobia. And again, I feel like it's very whitewashed and so I feel very...

I feel very disconnected from those spaces that I, for, you know, for a good few years was, was just so connected to. And I'm hoping that I can find my way back to those spaces in a way that is not fat phobic. I guess I'm looking for spaces that are inclusive and

You know, want my.

practices to not have to.

be tainted by diet culture and the diet industry. And unfortunately for the last couple of years I've realised that is the case. Like the few spaces that I'm still in, there is still conversations that are diet culture. I was gonna say diet culture adjacent, there is no diet culture adjacent. They are diet culture conversations. And I just don't want to be a part of those spaces anymore. So that is something that I'm kind of.

working towards is kind of leaving those spaces this year and yeah, looking forward to what's new. I feel like I've taken a complete tangent there but you know these are just my thoughts as I'm listening back to this episode so let's listen to the next clip.

Melanie Knights [she/they] (33:16)
Another thing to think about, especially if you are a product based business owner or designer, something like that, is the models that you are using in your business. Are you just choosing models because of a certain size? Are you choosing them because they are aesthetically pleasing for your Instagram feed or are you actually

being inclusive, especially if you carry bigger sizes, right? Especially if you carry bigger sizes. Don't make us this thing that you hide in your sizes.

And also if you don't carry bigger sizes, why not? Think about the sizing you carry for your merchandise. Think about who you affiliate with. Are they inclusive?

Do your research of both who you reach out to, but also the companies that approach you. If you are trying to build a business that is fully inclusive, and that includes size inclusivity, does that company actually include sizes that you can fit into? Does it actually include sizes that your entire audience could fit into?

If you are in the direct marketing or MLM industry, please stop using fat people as your marketing ploy In the last couple of months, I have probably had a dozen messages from

women who have taken a look at my feed and wanted to send me a message they loved my look and they loved my style and they thought I'd be such a good match for what they did. I think it's Arbonne. asking me if I would just check it out, even though I'm not interested. Would I just check it out? Would I give up an hour of my time?

No, I will not. ⁓ And when I really dig deep, I'm like, why did you choose me? Because yeah, sure, all the things you just complimented me on are true. However, was it because of my size? Because many of these companies are diet and weight loss companies, disguising themselves as health and wellness.

Melanie Knights [she/they] (35:34)
So at the end of this episode, I share a few different ways in which specifically small businesses can consider their inclusivity or lack of inclusivity, I guess. ⁓ You know, at the time, a lot of my peers were online business owners and I was working with a lot of different small business owners in different capacities. I was working with brands, I was working with coaches, I was working with artists.

⁓ I don't think a single one of my clients during that time was considering size inclusivity. They had started to consider diversifying the imagery they used. They had started to consider diversity within stock photography and things like that, including non-white models or non-white images.

But size inclusivity wasn't even a factor. ⁓ And I'm gonna be honest, I don't think any of them do it now. And that's just an observation. That's not, you know, it's not my business, but it is an observation that I have made over the years. It's interesting, I think size inclusivity continues to be ignored. It's also, I get it's also really hard to find imagery

like stock images for many of these businesses that reflect their business and are size inclusive. I fully get that. But it's not impossible, you know? And there is a part of me that thinks...

I know people who offer stock photography that is inclusive and diverse. Lindley Ashline is one of them. Body Liberation stock photography. I've been connected to Lindley for many years and I had her on my previous podcast and we did an episode and we talked about her stock photography and I'm like, hmmm.

it's not that difficult. I just don't think people want to invest even a small amount of money in changing the way, like changing the aesthetic or the appearance of their business or their website in order to include fat bodies. You know? You know. I'm gonna be very honest, I just think that's the reality. I think a lot of people

in the online business space still clinging to this kind of very

Pinterest-worthy aesthetic and fat bodies aren't involved in that, fat bodies aren't included in that as far as they're concerned, ⁓ which sucks. But anyway, so yeah, at this point of the episode, I shared a number of ways that businesses, small businesses could be more size inclusive. And as you hear, I'm talking specifically in this part about models and inclusive sizing of clothes.

And I think this was born from a client that I was working with at the time. I loved her designs. Her jewelry didn't fit my fingers. Her boots were never going to fit around my legs. And her t-shirts didn't go beyond an XL. And I think at this time I was an XL 2XL and she started to source plus size pieces of which over the years I've had a few.

pieces from her. I actually did some work with her as well in like 2022 I think. And yeah, I was starting to fall in love with fashion again. I was starting to kind of figure out my style a little bit at that time

I remember going shopping and noticing that the plus sizes in stores like New Look and they were hidden and in H &M they were hidden, H &M don't even have a plus size section now.

online or anywhere and in department stores there was so few sizes above a size 20 or 22 and I think I was just starting to notice these things. I don't know where I was shopping for clothes prior to this but I was starting to notice the difference in the way fat bodies were being treated. I started to notice the discrimination and

Yeah, I may not have fully understood it all had the language, but I was starting to notice that my body was being treated differently. I also pick up on some of the times, I don't know whether it's just the way I'm speaking in this episode, but I'm noticing there's certain things I'm saying that feel as though I'm trying to distance myself. But then I then like in the next sentence, I include myself in the conversation. say like we, us. So it's interesting.

I'm like, you can definitely see I'm on this like precipice of diving into anti-diet work and really starting to...

ditch diets and start to understand or start to learn and unlearn everything that, you know, I've been taught from childhood.

Anyway, this has been an interesting, this has been an interesting episode to record. It's been interesting to see how far, how much has changed in the last five years, how far have come those stepping stones.

it's really cool to see. And I'm hoping that the editing of this episode isn't going to be too jarring. I'm trying to figure this out as I go. I've never recorded an episode like this before. So just, if you made it this far and thank you for listening. And I apologize if any of the kind of transitional sounds were a little bit jarring. I'm going to try and figure that out in the editing process.

Thank you for joining me for this episode, this kind of final episode of season four. It's been a jam packed series. It's been full of content, full of stories, full of, ⁓ full of information. And yeah, who would have known five years ago or five years later that I would be doing this and sharing this? I certainly didn't at the time, which is cool. I love it. I love seeing that kind of evolution.

And I'm so glad that we're here. I'm so glad that you're a part of this community. Thank you for being here. As I said next week, I'm going to be replaying an episode from last year. It was the first episode of our autumn season and it's Fat Positive Fall. And I am going to be sharing that with you next week and then going to be taking a little bit of a break as we come to the end of August and start to think about

What's next for the podcast? Give me a little bit of space, guys. I need to do some planning. I need to get my kid into high school. And I also need to probably just lay down in a pumpkin patch and just enjoy some hopefully cooler weather. But yeah, thank you so much for being here for this season. Thank you so much for your support of the show. For everybody who's following on Substack, I appreciate you. I see you. I...

I'm so excited to continue this journey with you and I'm so excited to welcome guests onto the show next season. So if you are someone who would like to sit down and chat, have a little yap with me about diet culture, please let me know, either comment or send me a message here on the sub stack or you can send me an email, cultureofitallpod at Melanieknights.com.

And if you have a particular guest you would like me to sit down with, let me know who it is that you would love to hear on the show next season or if there are particular topics or questions you have, I would love to hear from you. So thank you so much. I hope you have a great end to your summer and I will see you next week.